This conversation is excerpted from What are you waiting for?A newly translated dialogue between Austrian journalist Irmgard Kirchner and her old friend Santacitta Bhikkhuni. The two had known each other long before Santacitta left her avant-garde dance theater career behind to become a Theravada monk, teacher and co-founder of Aloka Vihara in California.
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We have been friends for over forty years. I have noticed profound changes in you since you started practicing Buddhism. Would you say that Buddhism is a healing path for you? Definitely: all spiritual paths are. It offers healing from ignorance or delusion.
How would you explain the delusion to a non-Buddhist? Greed, hatred, aversion, jealousy… these states of mind are expressions of error. People are usually concerned with wanting more of one thing or less of another. Holding on or pushing away, not wanting – both patterns are a variation of clinging. Attachment distorts reality because it is an attempt to stop a flow. If you stand in a river and try to stop the flow of water, pressure builds up. The water begins to swirl and no longer follows a natural path. This leads to the distortion of what really exists.
In early Buddhism they talk about the four vipallasafour distortions of perception:
• to see what is ephemeral (anicca) constant (nicca)
• to see what is painful (dukkha) so pleasant (sukha)
• to see what is without me (anatta) like me (atta)
• to see what is not beautiful (we are young) so beautiful (morning)
Can you give a specific example from your own development to illustrate freedom from error and attachment? I have more confidence in the flow of life as it is. I am aware of the lure of the consumer society, but at the same time there are many things that I no longer engage in. It’s clearer to me than ever that my contentment and the subtle joy I bring doesn’t come from the things I own. You can have the most wonderful things and still be desperately unhappy. I have fewer demands and thus more freedom. Buddhist practice promises freedom from attachment and thus from mental delusions and resulting distortions.
If you apply this to your daily life, there will be less stress in the here and now. You feel less pressure to earn a certain level of income to buy these things that the advertising industry has drummed into you.
He spoke of attachments that must be overcome. I can get attached to things that don’t cost anything – for example, I find joy in a butterfly or a flower. Of course, you can enjoy the butterfly and the flower, so you don’t have to insist.
It’s hard for me to tell the difference. People say that Buddhism turns away from life in the here and now, because life is suffering, and turns to another dimension. This is a bad interpretation or translation from when Buddhism was first encountered by the West. The expression dukkha translated as “suffering”. However, dukkha it actually means ‘unsatisfactory’. The word dukkha consists of two parts: -from is a negative word and means something like ‘not fitting’, while ha describes the hole in the center of the wheel into which the axle is inserted. If the axle does not fit in the hole, the wheel will wobble and the road will be bumpy. This is what dukkha really means. And this unsatisfactory quality does not lie in the phenomena themselves, but is the result of specific expectations related to such phenomena.
There is nothing that can satisfy you in the long run. This tape recorder, this chair, and everything else in this room will at some point break down and stop working. All things are unsatisfactory, so you cannot base your happiness on one thing or another person. Of course, you can enjoy everything in the moment as long as it gives you pleasure, but if possible, do it without clinging to it if you want to avoid the resulting stress.
The Four Noble Truths are often compared to a doctor’s diagnosis. Buddha can be seen as a spiritual doctor who can cure the disease of delusion. Initially, the diagnosis is that there is dukkha or the experience of suffering. A mind that is not fully awakened is attached to things, resulting in stress and suffering. Any person who lives with a little attention will see that everything in life is constantly changing. Therefore, there is nothing that can satisfy you permanently – this is the first realization. To live is to experience discomfort. We can’t really control our own lives.
The second truth concerns the origin of dukkha. What is the germ, the pathogen that caused this disease? It’s attachment. Attachment and suffering or stress arise at the same time: inadequacy is not an inherent property of the phenomena, but rather a result of attachment.
The third truth is the answer to the question of what constitutes a realistic and healthy state. It means seeing things as they really are, without clinging to them. It is freedom from dukkha.
The fourth truth is the noble eightfold path: the treatment plan is the third noble truth, to achieve health by truly following the doctor’s prescriptions.
So there is no contradiction between Buddhism and the joy of life? No, not at all. After all, joy is one of the seven awakening factors: Without joy, there is no awakening. One can experience joy without attachment, that is, the joy of the moment. Yesterday I was sitting in my friend’s garden when suddenly a huge flock of starlings flew over us. I heard the beat of their wings and felt a deep happiness. And then they left. That’s true joy – in the moment. You can be happy and grateful to be able to experience something like this without necessarily hoping it will come back anytime soon.
If I have no attachment, do I automatically live in the moment? Yes, and it leads to a very different quality of pleasure, a subtle pleasure that is not based on the senses. If you look at this with a clouded mind, you will most likely not be able to understand it. Experiencing some kind of sensory pleasure and at the same time worrying that it will pass away is not real pleasure.
Experiencing some kind of sensory pleasure and at the same time worrying that it will pass away is not real pleasure.
Such an attitude is characterized by fear, and this fear blocks the path to true happiness. When you are in the flow of life, the enjoyable things will surface again and again. There will be happy moments even if you are very sick or poor.
Thinking about the impermanence of all things leads to a dilemma. In the long run, everything dissolves and we all return to dust. Our human species will disappear from the planet, other species will come, and at some point the sun will go out. Why should I make an effort? For example, for social justice, the climate crisis or biodiversity? When your mother is sick, you don’t say, “I don’t have to take care of her because she’s going to die one day anyway.” If we had that attitude, we could all destroy ourselves instantly. While we can, and out of kindness, it is always appropriate to try to alleviate suffering. This also corresponds to the four divine abodes (brahmaviharas), which are so important in Buddhism and which are also called the four immeasurables:
• loving kindness (metta)
• compassion (Karuna)
• joy (mudita)
• balance (upekkha)
It is often misunderstood that we are calm about what is happening in the world. Balance doesn’t mean we don’t care, it has a lot to do with courage.
You are open to anything, even if it is scary or too exciting. You are always so brave to say: yes, I can get into this. This is central to the Buddha’s teachings—recognizing how you relate to your own experience. You can’t change the laws of nature, but you can muster up as much goodness and kindness as you can and keep practicing. By doing this, you are also doing yourself a favor by training your mind positively and reducing your ego. When you die, these mental habits will have a good effect on your next birth. You are the biggest beneficiary, but it is also good for others or the person you care for. In this way, every life situation can be our teacher.
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From What are you waiting for? A conversation about Buddhism between two old friends. © 2026 Irmgard Kirchner and Santacitta Bhikkhuni © 2026 English translation by Gwen Clayton. Reprinted with permission from Windhorse Publications.
